Kerry Washington and Tony Goldwyn on Scandal Ending, Olivia and Fitz Future
This interview is part of Variety and CNN’s Actors on Actors series. Watch the full video interview now on CNN.com/Watch (or in the CNN app) and on Variety’s YouTube channel starting at 11:59 PM ET.
From 2012 through 2018, Kerry Washington played Washington, DC fixer Olivia Pope alongside Tony Goldwyn’s President Fitzgerald Grant in the Shonda Rhimes-created sensation “Scandal.” Olivia and Fitz – “Olitz” to their superfans – couldn’t stay away from each other, let alone that he was married and president of the United States and they met when she was hired to work on his campaign. “Scandal” was appointment television as Olivia and her staff, whom she proudly called “gladiators in suits,” used every trick at their disposal to win.
Not only was “Scandal” an absolute blast, but the casting of Washington – a black woman – as the lead revolutionized representation on television. Rhimes, according to Goldwyn, would say, “I’m just writing the world as I see it, and I think that’s the way it should be,” and Washington concludes his thought: “The world is constantly catching up.”
Mary Ellen Matthews for Variation
Washington is the star and executive producer of her most recent project, the Apple TV thriller “Imperfect Women.” In doing so, she tried to “build an environment where people feel safe enough to take big risks and big swings,” she tells Goldwyn during their Actors on Actors conversation. In the limited series, based on Araminta Hall’s 2020 novel of the same name, Washington plays Eleanor, a successful CEO whose life is turned upside down when one of her best friends is murdered.
Goldwyn is a dual threat this television season. In “Hacks,” he plays Bob Lipka, the jerk media overlord who holds comedian Deborah Vance (Jean Smart) to the strictest interpretation of her contract’s non-compete clause after she quit as host of a late-night talk show on his network. And in “Law & Order,” which Goldwyn joined in March 2024 as Manhattan District Attorney Nicholas Baxter, he fills the role that Sam Waterston has played for decades. When the show’s producers approached Goldwyn for the role, he says, “it felt like a privilege.”
In the latest episode of ‘Scandal’, Olivia literally walked away from the White House, like a montage showing every character played. Her future is the most mysterious, as the public will see that a painting of her will hang in the National Portrait Gallery, an honor usually reserved for presidents. As for Olitz? Fitz’s final on-screen moments with Olivia involve them saying “hello” to each other, which was always their way of reconnecting. Do Washington and Goldwyn think their characters made jam together in Vermont? You’ll have to read on to find out.
Kerry Washington: In real life, do people constantly ask you to run for president?
Tony Goldwyn: Yes, usually on a street corner. Don’t you get Olivia Pope all the time?
Washington: Yes, constantly. And that I had to run for office, or “Olivia Pope, you have to fix this!” So what do you say to people?
Goldwyn: I always said thank you very much, but that’s a very bad idea.
Washington: I don’t think you have one terrible Chairman, to be honest. Because you would gather a truly great cabinet and team around you. And you care!
Goldwyn: I would. I would bring you in.
Washington: You wouldn’t take me with you. I wouldn’t be available. You’re such a nice guy, that’s for sure.
Goldwyn: First of all, Kerry says something nice to me. Doesn’t happen that often.
Washington: You play such a jerk on ‘Hacks’.
Goldwyn: I was a huge fan. So when they asked me to play a part, I literally didn’t even read it. I was like, “Please sign me up.” Bob Lipka, head of a media company, is just one of those guys. I can’t name names because that would get me in trouble, but there are several who run these big companies.
Washington: He’s so mean. I want to know: was it inspired by anyone?
Goldwyn: So I said it one time, and they said something like that [whispers]”Don’t say that.” I’ve known several guys like that, and I don’t judge them. Those jobs are hard. At the end of season 5, Jean and I have a crazy scene where Bob Lipka steps to new heights (or depths, whichever way you want to look at it) in his attempts to rein in the brilliant Deborah Vance. It was a privilege to be part of that show.
Now back to you: I’m obsessed with “Imperfect Women.” You and Elisabeth Moss and Kate Mara and Corey Stoll and Joel Kinnaman – all my favorite actors are on that show.
Washington: Elisabeth Moss found the book in 2019 and immediately knew she wanted to play Mary. The role she offered me was Eleanor. One of my favorite things about the book, which we were able to capture in the show, is the idea that the show changes perspectives. When you first read the book, it feels like it’s going to be a whole novel from Eleanor’s perspective. And then you turn a page and it says “Nancy” and you say, “Oh, now I’m going to look at this story from the dead lady’s point of view!” And then it shifts again, and it’s Mary. We do that during the show. It meant that instead of having a call sheet that was like one, two, three of who’s the lead, we actually had a show with three number 1s. All three of us carry that show together.
Goldwyn: You certainly do.
Washington: One of the things that drew me to Eleanor was that all three of us, Kate and Lizzie and myself, have played strong women, yet the forces we’re fighting against are big, bad forces. Whether it’s Gilead, the White House or journalism, we’re dealing with these great forces. But in this show, the forces we’re dealing with are much more internal. The big bad is our own sense of denial, fear and insecurity. And that kind of inner turmoil was really exciting to play with such a brilliant cast.
Goldwyn: So did you develop the script together?
Mary Ellen Matthews for Variation
Washington: Annie Weisman was already on board as our showrunner when I came on board. But Simpson Street and Love & Squalor, Lizzie Moss’ company, really built the show with Annie. Built the writers’ room, hired the heads of departments, hired the directors, built the cast.
Goldwyn: And that’s your job too fantastic.
Washington: Oh, Tony, thank you. As a producer, I love it when our costume designers or set designers go home and say, “Wow, I think this might be my best work.” I felt like I had to do that for myself in this show too. I had to create an environment where I could do the strongest, most courageous work I’ve ever done before.
Can I ask you a question about ‘Law & Order’?
Goldwyn: Certainly!
Washington: Were you terrified to step into the iconic role of Sam Waterston? I mean, they’re such big shoes to fill, and he’s so loved. Was that intimidating? Inspiring?
Goldwyn: It was inspiring. I was excited to do it. Sam was one of my acting heroes. Twenty years ago I had the opportunity to direct him once in ‘Law & Order’. I can’t fill Sam’s shoes; that’s impossible. But the character I play is a completely different man; he just has the same job. And they’ve created a really interesting character, and the reason the show is good is because they still care so much about the writing.
Washington: I did three episodes! Three different characters in the universe.
Goldwyn: We’ll keep trying to get you back.
Washington: How fun would that be?
Goldwyn: They say, “Can we get Kerry?” I’m like, “I’m bothering her. I’m always bothering her.”
Should we delve into a ‘scandal’? Fitz and Olivia? We still take pictures together.
Washington: People are still so passionate about Olitz. Have you also noticed something online where some people say, “Now that I’m older and I look at the relationship, I’m not sure how healthy it is.” Have you seen any of that?
Goldwyn: Are they just figuring that out? Interesting!
Washington: They weren’t the healthiest couple. That doesn’t mean they weren’t deeply in love, but they did have some issues, and that’s why people loved it. What did you think of the ending?
Goldwyn: I loved It.
Washington: I did that too. The “Hi” in the street. I don’t mean the portrait thing – I mean our ending, the Olitz ending.
Goldwyn: I felt like it was all part of the same thing. And I have a very strong opinion about what happened.
Washington: People have a very strong sense that they are in Vermont, making jam and stuff. Do you feel this way?
Goldwyn: I feel like Fitz and Olivia are together.
Washington: What are they doing?
Goldwyn: I feel like what we had at the root of it was very real, and that’s why we could never escape it – instead of it being something that was ultimately dysfunctional. I thought these two people were ultimately their answer to each other.
Washington: Do you feel like they are in couples therapy now?
Goldwyn: Yes, regularly! Because they know they have to do that to survive. But I think Fitz spent some time in Vermont. He had to get out of the toxic cartridges.
Washington: Did he make his own jam?
Goldwyn: I think Olivia probably taught him how to make jam, but when she ate his jam she said, “Your jam sucks!”
Washington: Your jam is terrible.
Mary Ellen Matthews for Variation
Goldwyn: But I feel like he was very supportive of her trajectory – whether she became president of the United States or whatever her thing was, I feel like his real jones was to help this woman, like…
Washington: Her biggest, best self.
Goldwyn: Her best self!
Washington: That’s wonderful, Ton.
Goldwyn: Don’t look back at times in your life where everything just went wrong and you made bad choices – you did some things great, but other things were a mess, and now you’ve gotten through that and you look back and say, “I’m so glad I did that, because that was all part of the process.”
Washington: When I look back at times in my life that were a mess, I think, “but because of the grace of God – thank God I got through it.” I was talking to my manager yesterday about how grateful I was that “Scandal” hadn’t happened earlier in my life. Because I wouldn’t be able to process it. It required so much leadership, accountability, responsibility, communication skills and teamwork. It required such a level up for me as a human being.
At that time I also got married and had my own real family. And if that had happened before, I would have destroyed it. Destroyed It. So I think maybe it was harder before, because I had to grow and learn to meet this moment.
Goldwyn: Same with me. The whole thing is a miracle.
Washington: That rocket ship we were all on together.
Prop styling and art direction: Shawn Patrick Anderson/Acme Studios; Prop Styling Assistant: Joseph Bell
